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Hachiko
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:07 pm
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mononokifool wrote:
To be honest they do not have that in their country(I'm amusing you are still talking about Hispanic's),


I'm glad that you are amusing that I am talking about hispanics. Guess what, hispanics make up the majority of illegal immigrants in America, do you disagree? So, it is not uncommon for one arguing against illegal immigration to focus on the demographic that constitutes the majority of the issue. Or are you just copping out and try to slap a racist label on me? I know there are plenty of illegal Middle-Easterners, Africans, Europeans and Asians here as well. I say, send them back as well. We have an immigration system, and while it may be flawed, it is the law. That is the law my wife and I followed when she immigrated here, it is the same law that should be applied to all.

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what they have are few rich people who buy off politicians and drug lords that ravage the common people. They arnt guaranteed a house, food, health care, or education.


Sounds pretty rough, sure. The sort of things that people with half a brain usually postulate on being reproducing.

Quote:
Most are not coming over here to ruin our lives but improve their's and their families. Would you not do the same?


Of course I would. However, with every action, there is a calculated risk. There should be a risk for their illegal activities.
Also, while they are not setting out to ruin our lives, they are doing it in a roundabout manner. Does this mean that I should dislike them less? Should I be less upset at being shot by a stray bullet than one that was aimed at me? I seriously hope this is not the logic you're bringing to the table here.

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Also MS-13 and other gangs stem mostly from lack of education, and being shunned from society. If latinos were accepted in the work place and in higher education like most well established American families are then there would not be an MS-13. When people are thrown out and told they are worthless they join together
[/quote]

Really? Living in New York I can tell you that there is no shortage of Hispanics in either college or the workforce.
If the MS-13 folks have such great organizational skills, let them apply them back home in their 3rd world sh*tholes.
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TamAlthor
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Joined: 09 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:23 pm
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Hachiko wrote:
3rd world sh*tholes.


Really? If you don't want to be percived as a racist, you may want to find another way of phrazing things.

I don't think that you are. I can see how one can be angry with illegal immigrants without being pejudaced against the people themseleves. While I disagree with your overall opinion I think you make some really good points and are asking some really good questions. However I feel that your message is perhaps being lost in your presentation of these facts and questions. You are understandably passionate about this topic. It seems to have a direct impact on your life and that of your family. I perhaps have gotten a little passionate myself in my comments and I appologize if i have seemed close minded or insensative to your point of view. I will also try to keep more to just the facts and try to keep my passion more in check.

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Hachiko
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 4:12 pm
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Ok, let me rephrase.
They should apply their keen organizational skills in their less-advantageous home countries.
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Patrick
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Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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Location: Arkansas, USA

PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:59 pm
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*cough*

I know I already stated my feelings on the issue, so there's no point in repeating them. All I'm going to say is that when my mother's family came over from what was the Ottoman Empire they were dirt-poor and lacking in any "skills" as well, and they emigrated legally. Same goes for my dad's Irish forebears...growing potatoes didn't really translate into any usable skills here in America, at least for them.

Yet the backbreaking and unappreciated labor of those Irish immigrants (as well as that of others) built the canals and railroads, worked on the docks and in the shipyards and in the mines that transformed the United States from a collection of states largely separated by regional differences and geography into a transcontinental empire.

And to a large extent, the same arguments made about the Irish and the Chinese and the Italians and the Arabs back in the old days are now being made about Hispanics immigrants. They're unskilled, they're lazy, their culture/religion isn't sufficiently "American" (read: white northern European Protestant) for them to assimilate, they're going to overwhelm America with anchor babies and swamp our industrious, skilled, democratic, law-abiding, rugged individualist culture with their own inferior ways and take away jobs from real Americans and blah blah blah....

Frankly, it's bullshit. Yeah, I know they're breaking the law just by being here...does that mean we right now should kick all 12,000,000 illegals out, children included? Should we fortify the southern border with the National Guard and shoot brown people on sight if they try to make an illegal crossing? Those who do commit violent crimes should be summarily deported, I don't dispute that at all...but 99% of Hispanic immigrants are hardworking normal people wanting to make a better life for their families. I also don't see many so-called Real Americans stepping in to fill the jobs that these days are largely done by immigrants.

The reason they're here and keep coming is because their own countries' governments and economies, to a large extent, have failed. So they come here, often across deserts or open ocean and often through other grave dangers (such as extortionate human traffickers) to do backbreaking labor for little appreciation and more hostility. I can't blame them for wanting a better life for themselves. And as for the alleged "Reconquista," don't get me started....

If one day I live as a minority in a Hispanic America, so be it. I'd still rather be there than 1860s Ireland or 1890s Lebanon. The prospect doesn't scare me, because I look around at this country, and I see the most powerful country in the history of the world, and I see that it was built largely on the blood, sweat, toil, and tears of poor, unskilled, despised immigrants who so many wanted to get rid of. That's a heritage that I, the distantly-descended son of such immigrants, who lives a more or less comfortable and safe life because of their labor, will always be proud of, and it's why I refuse to reduce the immigration debate to racialist alarms and statistical analyses.
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julie
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Joined: 04 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 7:29 pm
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I would just like to add one small comment to this portion of the discussion.

I think that if the beleaguered American citizens who feel their jobs are being taken by illegals were willing to work as hard for as little pay, then they wouldn't be losing jobs to illegal aliens.

As a corollary, if the employment community were willing to pay enough to make their wages enough for an American citizen to support a family on in this country (as opposed to sending the money back to a country where it's worth a lot more to the family of the illegal immigrant) and to make sure the people they are hiring are legal to work in this country (using the appropriate I-9 forms) and paying the appropriate employment taxes on their employees, there would be a lot less opportunity for abuse of the system and maybe more incentive to the potential immigrants to try to make things better in their own countries.

I'm sure that's a simplistic and naive pov, but there are certainly better ways to de-incentivize illegal immigration than giant border fences and vigilante patrols.

As long as employers are willing to look the other way to save a few bucks, people who need the money badly enough will be willing to risk what they have to in order to earn the money. And if the American consumer wants to buy inexpensive commodities and services, then the American consumer has to expect the employers to cut costs somewhere. Or be willing to pay more. It's a vicious cycle.
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Hachiko
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:48 pm
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Patrick wrote:
*cough*

I know I already stated my feelings on the issue, so there's no point in repeating them. All I'm going to say is that when my mother's family came over from what was the Ottoman Empire they were dirt-poor and lacking in any "skills" as well, and they emigrated legally. Same goes for my dad's Irish forebears...growing potatoes didn't really translate into any usable skills here in America, at least for them.

Yet the backbreaking and unappreciated labor of those Irish immigrants (as well as that of others) built the canals and railroads, worked on the docks and in the shipyards and in the mines that transformed the United States from a collection of states largely separated by regional differences and geography into a transcontinental empire.

And to a large extent, the same arguments made about the Irish and the Chinese and the Italians and the Arabs back in the old days are now being made about Hispanics immigrants. They're unskilled, they're lazy, their culture/religion isn't sufficiently "American" (read: white northern European Protestant) for them to assimilate, they're going to overwhelm America with anchor babies and swamp our industrious, skilled, democratic, law-abiding, rugged individualist culture with their own inferior ways and take away jobs from real Americans and blah blah blah....


Yes yes well and good. We all know, like I pointed out before, how this country was built by immigrants. At this juncture, however, do we really need 12 million (although many will say it's closer to 20 million) extra people here in violation of the law? No. Immigration quotas are in place for a reason; SO WE DON'T GET OVERWHELMED IN POPULATION. This country cannot sustain 300,400 million or half a billion people.Why should we let a surplus 10% of what is our current population stay here because they though it was damn cute to waltz over the border?

Quote:
Frankly, it's bullshit. Yeah, I know they're breaking the law just by being here...does that mean we right now should kick all 12,000,000 illegals out, children included? Should we fortify the southern border with the National Guard and shoot brown people on sight if they try to make an illegal crossing?


You want to talk about bullshit? You're keying in all the sensitive words here, ohhhh 'children' and 'brown people'. And shooting too. How very melodramatic. No, catch em, cage em, and send them back. Children too, little illegals grow up to be big illegals, so you'd just be being proactive. And as for 'brown people', hey, I said deport all illegals, black, brown, kinda brown, yellow and white. If the browns are the biggest offenders, sayonara to them first.

Quote:
Those who do commit violent crimes should be summarily deported, I don't dispute that at all...but 99% of Hispanic immigrants are hardworking normal people wanting to make a better life for their families. I also don't see many so-called Real Americans stepping in to fill the jobs that these days are largely done by immigrants.


Now that the people are here that are willing to pimp themselves out as slave labor, a fare wage won't be offered. Offer a fair salary, and Americans will do it. I know coal miners, mushroom miners, contractors, all kinds of crap job workers. Remember in Roger & Me when Michael Moore got the entire city of Flint to agree to take sneaker assembly jobs if they'd open a factory there. Those who assume that Americans are lazy are the truly prejudiced idiots. There is no rampant 'Fear of a Brown Planet' but there is some 'Fear of going poor while illegal aliens pop out new welfare recipients every 9 months'.

Quote:

The reason they're here and keep coming is because their own countries' governments and economies, to a large extent, have failed. So they come here, often across deserts or open ocean and often through other grave dangers (such as extortionate human traffickers) to do backbreaking labor for little appreciation and more hostility. I can't blame them for wanting a better life for themselves.


Wow, add in a haunting violin score by Hans Zimmer, and that's a Spielbergian paragraph if ever I read one.

Quote:

And as for the alleged "Reconquista," don't get me started....


I don't have to get you started, it has already started.

Quote:
If one day I live as a minority in a Hispanic America, so be it. I'd still rather be there than 1860s Ireland or 1890s Lebanon. The prospect doesn't scare me, because I look around at this country, and I see the most powerful country in the history of the world, and I see that it was built largely on the blood, sweat, toil, and tears of poor, unskilled, despised immigrants who so many wanted to get rid of. That's a heritage that I, the distantly-descended son of such immigrants, who lives a more or less comfortable and safe life because of their labor, will always be proud of,


Actually, I don't think you'll ever be a resident of a majority Hispanic America. One thing illegal Hispanics are not, is dumb. When this economy, and then Country, truly tanks, they'll will leave on their own like bats out of hell. You can already see small pockets of it. They are not so foolish as to trade one mud hut for another.


Quote:

and it's why I refuse to reduce the immigration debate to racialist alarms and statistical analyses.


Statistics? We don't need no stinkin statistics! I guess.....
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Hachiko
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:51 pm
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julie wrote:

I think that if the beleaguered American citizens who feel their jobs are being taken by illegals were willing to work as hard for as little pay, then they wouldn't be losing jobs to illegal aliens.

As a corollary, if the employment community were willing to pay enough to make their wages enough for an American citizen to support a family on in this country, there would be a lot less opportunity for abuse of the system and maybe more incentive to the potential immigrants to try to make things better in their own countries.

As long as employers are willing to look the other way to save a few bucks, people who need the money badly enough will be willing to risk what they have to in order to earn the money. And if the American consumer wants to buy inexpensive commodities and services, then the American consumer has to expect the employers to cut costs somewhere. Or be willing to pay more. It's a vicious cycle.


Well put all around Julie. This extends beyond immigration and into the crisis of outsourcing. In the end we are all guilty parties to an extent.
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Rhodric
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:25 pm
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Pat, get your worthless immigrant arse into the kitchen and make me some lamb chops and baklava. I'm not paying you below min wage for nothing!!
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Dudde
The Monster at the end of this Post


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:59 pm
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I love lamb chops!

I don't necessarily think that anyone here illegally is 100% to blame on this part of the argument. If you want to get mad, do it at the companies that advertise they'll pay good money to them - pretty much what Julie said, only I've quite personal experience on that end of the ball. You have all these people telling you to come work for money, you finally get the chance to do it and as soon as you're caught they disown all knowledge of you whatsoever, talk about crappy

*note: I don't mean to say they know they're not supposed to come to this side of the border, they do, but they've also got people telling them to come over and get some money. If we changed some of our social program laws and got tighter on the businesses that hire without checking the right credentials - kinda like giving someone cough syrup for the flu =c
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Window Bar



Joined: 17 Nov 2009
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Location: Southern Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:17 am
Post subject: Immigration
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I've lived in several U.S. cities and towns, also a bit overseas. Life is certainly more interesting when folks from other cultures are in the mix.
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Hachiko
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:52 am
Post subject: Re: Immigration
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Window Bar wrote:
I've lived in several U.S. cities and towns, also a bit overseas. Life is certainly more interesting when folks from other cultures are in the mix.


I couldn't agree with you more. I lived for a few years in Queens, which has residents from over 200 countries speaking @ 138 languages. You can probably find the best food in the country there, plus pick up music from other cultures, spices, etc.
Current immigration laws allow for certain amounts of people from a large number of countries to pursue legal immigration into the U.S. This is fair, and a good thing.
Unfortunately, like any other aspect of social structure, there are those who see fit to bypass these rules and create a more problems than benefits.
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Joined: 17 Nov 2009
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Location: Southern Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:14 pm
Post subject: immigration
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Most discussions about immigration these days focus on three areas:

1) Over Population. This is a worldwide problem, yet it would probably behoove us to try to keep the net of immigration, emigration, birth and death at approximately a zero sum.

2) Economic Prosperity. Tough one. My personal belief is that immigration helps the economy by providing both a labor pool and a brain pool. Yet this arena can conflict with item #1, above.

3) Violence. No culture has a patent on violence, yet there seems to be a correlation between violence and certain kinds of social ferment, such as that which is currently sweeping much of the Islamic world. We can (and do) control for such variables... but we run the risk of cultural isolation, which might be a long-winded synonym for bigotry.

* * *

One of my closest friends and mentors defines "problem," prima facie, as a conundrum for which there is no answer. The immigration issue qualifies.

-- WB
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