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Mithril vs Dragonscale

 
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niss3



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:15 am
Post subject: Mithril vs Dragonscale
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[Today, 10:10 AM] Niss3: Is a mithril armor harder than a dragonscale armor?

I have no idea. That's why I'm asking. I think they're made in the same fantasy genre. But without any magical enchantments or special effects. Would the elven forged mithril be harder than the legendary dragonscale armor?

[Today, 10:12 AM] 8u770n5: equal niss3
[Today, 10:14 AM] Niss3: I don't think the guys arguing over it would consider equal as an option. They won't lay down their swords before they have proven eighter to be more powerful.

Here's the problem. I've ended up with two guys unable to finish their
argue about what would be strongest. That's why I'm in need of help
from real fantasy freaks to find out whichever conquers the other in
terms of hardness.

Thank you for sharing your opinion.
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Xinpheld
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:02 am
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When in doubt, rely on the geeks at theonering.net:


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Bilbo describes mithril as being as 'hard as dragon scales'. Allowing that Bilbo was being poetic or figurative rather than scientifically accurate, it is a safe bet that dragon scales -- when not additionally encrusted with gems -- are coated with enamel, the hardest substance produced by living creatures, and the same substance that coats your teeth. So how hard is that?

When seeking to identify a gem, jewellers assess hardness by the ability of one substance to scratch another. This concept was formalized in 1822 by the German mineralogist Friedrich Moh, and the Moh scale of hardness is still used today. In the Moh scale, diamond has a hardness of 10. Diamond is still the hardest known naturally occurring substance -- nothing matches it, or scratches it. Corundum (that is, ruby or sapphire) can be scratched by diamond, and has a hardness of 9. Topaz (with a hardness of 8) can be scratched by rubies but itself scratches quartz (hardness of 7), and so on, all the way down to flaky gypsum (2) and powdery talc at the bottom, with a hardness of 1. On this scale, teeth come in at around 5, the hardness of the mineral apatite -- which is not surprising, as this is the same mineral that forms the basis of bones and teeth. One would expect mithril to be at least as hard as that: good-quality steel has a hardness of around 6.5, so Bilbo's equation of mithril with dragon scales is about right.


http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/103003_02.html
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niss3



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:39 am
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so if I've interpret this correct.
Mithril is harder or at least as hard as Dragonscale?

Dragonscale ~= Teeth, teeth got a hardness of about 5.
Mithril ~= good-quality steel, good-quality steel -||- 6.5.

Thank you, btw ^^
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fluke13



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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 7:51 am
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hey, ok, its like this....

the expression as hard as dragon scales, is like saying u can run like wind, or as hard as nails...

in other words, mithril is not actually as hard as dragon scale, its much lighter and very tough, but not literally as tough as dragon scales. Dragon scales are 100% impenatrable, whereas mithril is basically stab proof, if your wearing mithril, you cant your skin underneath cannot be pierced, but you can still be severly winded, like frodo was in LOTR..u can still punch in the chest, whose wearing mithril and it will hurt, if u punched dragon scale it would just you. dragon scale is rarer, as it cant be mined.. general rule is a fantasy world, is that the rarer it is the better. There are of course different types of dragon and therefore different types of scale, which usually gives the scales different magical protections, to kill a dragon...by normal means, you need to shoot its belly with a poisoned arrow. But u should note that dragons are very clever and very revengeful, or at least some are, as i dont want to generalise. But usually if u attack it; and dont kill it, you, your family, home town, neighbours and dog are in trouble.

at market rates today, you can get yourself a decent set of mithril for around 500 gold coins, dragon scale doesnt really come onto the market too often, and when it does its usually tainted with wyren scale, if its under 2000 gold coins its likely to be fake.
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Dudde
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PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 12:44 pm
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An interesting discussion to say the least, but I think I agree with the General Synopsis. Especially given that the quote we were looking at was comparing mithril to dragon scale, and as fluke pointed out, usually you compare something you perceive to be lesser but great, and then follow it up with the greater point
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LunaRaven



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PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2009 6:30 am
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the expression as hard as dragon scales, is like saying u can run like wind, or as hard as nails...


Or alternatively the expression really meant that it was as hard as dragon scales. Like writing something along the lines of:

Inserting pressure on the strange, black goo that had settled between her finger tips, Luna considered the durability of the structure for a few fleeting seconds, all the while maintaining constant pressure. It appeared to be very hardy, as hard as a rock she thought. While she pondered the atypical substance, she felt a small vibration between her fingers. Frowning, she released her pressure and was greeted with a pleased and shocking sound.
"Thank you very much", it said,"I was finding it terribly difficult to breathe."

In this instance, I really do mean to imply that the black goo is as hard as rock. Similar situations may be found when someone is attempting to relate a foreign object’s feel, look, taste, or sound to something they already know. Like by saying that sauerkraut tastes as bad as sweet relish. In that case you really do mean to imply that sauerkraut tastes as bad as sweet relish. Can this be exaggerated? Of course. As is the case with many similies, sentences containing ‘like’ or ‘as’ can often be overblown or poetic sentences. Like saying that someone sings like a lark. Chances are, a lark sound doesn’t come from that person’s mouth. (though that would be pretty cool)

Now, considering the nature of the Hobbit and the way it is written (a tad poetically), it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to believe that Tolkien meant to imply that mithril was not has hard as dragons scales in a poetic fashion. However, considering Tolkien’s nature and his desire to explain everything he does (Tom Bombadil being the exception), I do not believe that Tolkien meant anything other than what he wrote. In this case, I think the scene in the book that mentions the durability of mithril is over analyzed. Also, I think the durability of mithril is proven over and over again, first when Frodo was stabbed by the spear and later when he was shot with orc arrows. Personally, I’ve always been under the impression that mithril was stronger than dragon scale. However, dragon scale deflected arrows as well(except for the weak point in the chest that killed Smaug),so maybe it is as strong as or stronger than mithril….hmm…I think I need to think this over with an apple.
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Dudde
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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 7:46 am
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I've often found that oranges help one think better, as you have to peel it first, whereas apples are just gone too quickly!

You do make a good point, and in the Tolkien, or most realms, I think Mithril is understood to be as hard or harder than dragonscale. I've always thought dragonscale to be harder though, I don't have any instances to provide offhand, but I'll look for some
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LunaRaven



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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 5:58 pm
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Dudde wrote:
I've often found that oranges help one think better, as you have to peel it first, whereas apples are just gone too quickly!

You do make a good point, and in the Tolkien, or most realms, I think Mithril is understood to be as hard or harder than dragonscale. I've always thought dragonscale to be harder though, I don't have any instances to provide offhand, but I'll look for some


I just thought of something while I was sleeping(I know, I think while I sleep). In the Hobbit, after Bard shot Smaug down, his body fell into the lake. Now all that remains of Smaug is his skeleton and the jewels that he bedazzled himself with. This implies that his scales deteriorated, putting into question their durability. I know of no case of mithril deteriorating. Quite the opposite, it's been used many times for objects that were still extant in the Lord of the Rings. These objects include Bilbo's coat of mithril mail, The symbol of kingship worn by Elendil and Islildur(I don't remember the name, but i'm pretty sure that it lasted beyond Aragon's reign), and I think that the Silmarilion mentions something about a mithril ship, maybe?(this could just be my overactive imagination)
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Dudde
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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 7:08 pm
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I agree that the durability may not be as great as that of mithril, that's a metal after all, and doesn't require the user to be alive in order to replenish the material itself. Totally. But while the dragon is still alive I still think dragonscale would be stronger - although it kind of depends on which lore you're going by as well. I know a few authors who use dragonscale armor as a tool in their writing, however, they indicate that it usually needs to be cured or treated in order to stick around as long as it does without deteriorating - whether this is indicative that it helps strengthen the armor or not I'm not sure, though I do know that these authors usually also indicate that dragonscale is quite a bit more pricey than Mithril.

sorry this was hastily written, I'm at work and I gotta make a call!
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LunaRaven



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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 8:22 pm
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Dudde wrote:
I agree that the durability may not be as great as that of mithril, that's a metal after all, and doesn't require the user to be alive in order to replenish the material itself. Totally. But while the dragon is still alive I still think dragonscale would be stronger - although it kind of depends on which lore you're going by as well. I know a few authors who use dragonscale armor as a tool in their writing, however, they indicate that it usually needs to be cured or treated in order to stick around as long as it does without deteriorating - whether this is indicative that it helps strengthen the armor or not I'm not sure, though I do know that these authors usually also indicate that dragonscale is quite a bit more pricey than Mithril.

sorry this was hastily written, I'm at work and I gotta make a call!


What authors do you speak of, Dudde? I'm almost certain, no I'm positive that mithril originated in Tolkien's work. I have, however, seen it used in games(like Runescape and Dungeons and Dragons), so maybe Tolkien never trademarked it? Irregardless, I'm assuming because Tolkien references have been used throughout this topic that the durability of original, Tolkien metal was the only mithril in question. If we were arguing only the original mithril, then I would almost 100% say that mithril is stronger than Tolkien dragonscales. As for written works that have used mtihril, I haven't read any and I don't know how the authors view mithril in their work.

Quote:
Dragon scales are 100% impenatrable, whereas mithril is basically stab proof, if your wearing mithril, you cant your skin underneath cannot be pierced, but you can still be severly winded, like frodo was in LOTR..u can still punch in the chest, whose wearing mithril and it will hurt, if u punched dragon scale it would just you. dragon scale is rarer, as it cant be mined.. general rule is a fantasy world, is that the rarer it is the better


If we're talking strictly Tolkien here, there is no evidence to back up your claim that dragons do not feel pain when their scales are hit (no evidence that I know of, atleast). Dragon scales, in Tolkien’s mythos atleast, are not 100% impenetrable. Impenetrability implies that dragon scales are impossible to penetrate or enter, meaning that nothing could get passed them or enter the flesh beneath. However, in the Hobbit, Smaug’s armour was penetrable. Smaug's armour wasn’t even difficult to get past because of his scales, but because of the jewels the were encrusted on his belly. All of his belly was covered in jewels for protections, with the exception of his left breast, which held a bare patch. It was that bare patch that was his demise when Bard shot his arrow into the exposed flesh. Therefore, Smaug's armour was not impenetrable.
Frodo was also not severely wounded in LOTR, during the fight at the Chamber of Mazarbul.*whips out her 1973 copy of Fellowship of the Ring* In the chapter Bridge of Khazad-dum, on page 386-387, Tolkien writes,

“Diving under Aragon’s blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo. The blow caught him on the right side, and Frodo was hurled against the wall and pinned. Sam, with a cry, hacked at the spear shaft and it broke, But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andruil came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burnt asunder. The orc fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragon sprang at them…Aragon picked up Frodo where he lay by the wall and made for the stair, pushing Merry and Pippin infront of him. The others followed; but Gimli had to be dragged away by Legolas: in spite of the peril he lingered by Balin’s tomb with his head bowed. Boromir hauled the eastern door to, grinding upon its hinges: it had great iron rings on either side, but could not be fastened.
‘I am all right,’ gasped Frodo. ‘I can walk. Put me down!’Aragon nearly dropped him in his amazement. ‘I thought you were dead!’ he cried.
‘Not yet!’ said Gandalf. ‘But there is no time for wonder. Off you go, all of you, down the stairs! Wait a few minutes for me at the bottom, but if I do not come soon, go on! Go quickly and choose paths leading right and downwards.’ ”


What does this proove? On page 389 Frodo says,

“ ‘What about me?’ said Frodo. ‘I am alive, and whole I think. I'm bruised and in pain, but it is not too bad’ ”

So no, Frodo was not severely injured. He had his breath knocked out to be sure, and at worst a bruised rib(which I personally don’t consider severe).

Also, I'm not sure that dragons (and their scales), were as rare in a whole as mithril was. While Tolkien only assigns names to four of his dragons, the existence of various other dragons can be seen throughout his work. They even had a breeding area (the Withered Heath, I believe. Maybe I should whip out my Silmarilion copy?) While it is true that Smaug was the last great fire dragon of Middle earth, he was not the last dragon. I think if you compare the number of Dragons since the time of Morgoth, to the number of mithril mined, there may have been more Dragons (and thus far more dragon scales, since each dragon no doubt holds hundreds) than mithril. Also, logically, since dragons before Smaug had been slayed and Smaug himself relied heavily on jewels as a means of defense, it is safe to deduce that Tolkien’s dragons did not posses super-strong scales.
Now, I don’t know about everybody else here, but the only mithril that I consider to be real mithril is Tolkien mithril. Everything else has just borrowed (or stolen, depending on your viewpoint), the name. So, conclusitorilly(yes, it’s a word in the LunaRaven dictionary), mithril(the real mithril) is harder than Tolkien’s dragons’ scales.
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Dudde
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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 9:50 am
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That's hardly fair - he may have created the existence of Mithril, but he's hardly the first person to mention Dragon scales, or dragons. If we're going by the assumption that this topic is regarding strictly works out of tolkien's books only, I agree that Mithril is harder than Dragon scale, but I don't think by much - the underbellies of the dragons weren't necessarily covered in hard scales to compare against, just soft flesh (relatively) and the reason they encrusted themselves in jewels. It's the top scales that were impenetrable.

I don't happen to have my copy of the LotR or the Hobbit just on me at the moment :c However, what was Frodo wearing when he was poisoned by one of the riders with that blade tip that was trying to pierce his heart?
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LunaRaven



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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 8:23 pm
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Dudde wrote:
That's hardly fair - he may have created the existence of Mithril, but he's hardly the first person to mention Dragon scales, or dragons. If we're going by the assumption that this topic is regarding strictly works out of tolkien's books only, I agree that Mithril is harder than Dragon scale, but I don't think by much - the underbellies of the dragons weren't necessarily covered in hard scales to compare against, just soft flesh (relatively) and the reason they encrusted themselves in jewels. It's the top scales that were impenetrable.

I don't happen to have my copy of the LotR or the Hobbit just on me at the moment :c However, what was Frodo wearing when he was poisoned by one of the riders with that blade tip that was trying to pierce his heart?


I personally think that it's spiffy fair. How else would you compare dragon scales from different worlds to an item that exists in only truly one world? Especially worlds where mithril doesn't exist? I never claimed that dragon scales were a Tolkien invention, I'd have been a silly scone to suggest so. But in my mind, the only way that you can properly compare the one item(dragon scales) to the other(mithril), is to compare it within the latter items universe. It's like when fans at forums pin two characters together. The battles themselves are usually unfair because the rule of each character's story are not taken into consideration. While in one story, mithril(the true mithril) is stronger than dragon scales, in another story a metal going under the name mithril could just be another run of the mill metal. Just as the strength of dragon scales varies from story to story. With that you could say, “oh well yeah Tolkien’s mithril is stronger than Tolkien’s Draongs’ scales, but the dragons in The Malazan Book of the Fallen have far stronger scales(even though I think that Erikson doesn’t have mithril existing in his story. But I could be very wrong on that).”
I suppose if, for arguments sake, we were to replace every other story with dragons that has a phony mithril with the properties of the real mithril , there would be some dragons whose scales would be stronger. This doesn’t give us LunaRavens an indefinite answer to the question, but I suppose a good enough one. The answer being, “some scales are harder than mithril, others aren’t”. Infact, that’s probably as good an answer as any.

I believe that at the time Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop he was wearing normal clothing(light armour of sorts, with a leather vest I think). He did not receive his coat of mithril until Rivendale. If you want an excerpt though, I can provide one. Looking through it again, I realize how long it’s been since I’ve had a good Tolkien reread. Perhaps I will have another Tolkien month soon?
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Rhodric
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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 12:15 pm
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Scones are almost never silly and almost always delicious. Especially Currant scones with butter or mayhaps al little clotted cream. mmmmm
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LunaRaven



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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 7:57 pm
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Rhodric wrote:
Scones are almost never silly and almost always delicious. Especially Currant scones with butter or mayhaps al little clotted cream. mmmmm


But when they are silly, scones are silliest of all pastries.
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Dudde
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:38 am
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I can agree that it makes sense to compare within the same fantasy realms, I just didn't start out focusing specifically on Tolkien Mithril, cause just cause he made it up doesn't mean that other people can't use it. I prefer it that way, otherwise we'd have 6000+ versions of metal to make armor out of in the fantasy Genre! That wouldn't be fun.

Quote:
With that you could say, “oh well yeah Tolkien’s mithril is stronger than Tolkien’s Draongs’ scales, but the dragons in The Malazan Book of the Fallen have far stronger scales


teehee, my dragon could beat up your dragon's DAD with one hand behind his back!

sorry, it's not time for work yet....
I agree with the overall statement, though I wasn't trying to say one was better than the other, more like speaking in generalities initially. Along the lines of "well in some books mithril is harder, but in most of them I see dragonscale tougher" - and I can't say I've ever seen an instance where Mithril was a run of the mill metal

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But when they are silly, scones are silliest of all pastries.

... your wisdom surpasses that of the highest altitudes of enlightenment =D
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LunaRaven



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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 8:07 pm
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Dudde wrote:
I can agree that it makes sense to compare within the same fantasy realms, I just didn't start out focusing specifically on Tolkien Mithril, cause just cause he made it up doesn't mean that other people can't use it. I prefer it that way, otherwise we'd have 6000+ versions of metal to make armor out of in the fantasy Genre! That wouldn't be fun.

Quote:
With that you could say, “oh well yeah Tolkien’s mithril is stronger than Tolkien’s Draongs’ scales, but the dragons in The Malazan Book of the Fallen have far stronger scales


teehee, my dragon could beat up your dragon's DAD with one hand behind his back!

sorry, it's not time for work yet....
I agree with the overall statement, though I wasn't trying to say one was better than the other, more like speaking in generalities initially. Along the lines of "well in some books mithril is harder, but in most of them I see dragonscale tougher" - and I can't say I've ever seen an instance where Mithril was a run of the mill metal

Quote:
But when they are silly, scones are silliest of all pastries.

... your wisdom surpasses that of the highest altitudes of enlightenment =D


Other people wouldn't have been able to use it, if Tolkien had bothered to get it trademarked. I hope if I'm ever a famous writer(or a dollar bin writer), that if someone steals my ideas that they'd be nice enough to put me in the dedication(especially if i'm a dollar bin writer, because i'll need the attention). But I suppose if Tolkien had gotten mithril trademarked, then we wouldn't of had this series of interesting conversations that have allowed me to showcase my geekerdorkness.

And yes, when it comes to pastries and all things silly, my wisdom transcends the level of normality into the altitude of omniscience. Oh, and by the by my dragon's dad could beat your dragon's kung-fu grandma any day of the Celtic calendar!
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Rhodric
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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 2:52 pm
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Well, my dragon's uncle could beat your dragon's bonzai butler in a catatonic state!

...or something

where are turnovers on the silly scale?
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LunaRaven



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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 6:32 pm
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Rhodric wrote:
Well, my dragon's uncle could beat your dragon's bonzai butler in a catatonic state!

...or something

where are turnovers on the silly scale?


My dragon's kung-fu grandma's sister with highlights could beat your dragon's uncle over the head with my dragon's kung-fu grandma's butler to next grumpday.
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Rhodric
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:11 am
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As Pooh Bear would say, Oh bother.
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:33 pm
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oh yeah, well BOTH of your dragons are FAT!

AH HA HA
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